24 January 2004
Submitted by eve on Sat, 01/24/2004 - 1:49pm. Funny
"No, that can't be right. I don't think there could be a homeless shelter in Palo Alto."
"Well, there is, but it's actually just a facade to the police station. Walk in the door and you're hog tied and thrown on a conveyor belt that runs straight to Sacramento."
--A girl and a guy at the Kensington Bistro
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Posted by copperhead on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 4:13am.
oh, jesus christ, i thought the toenail paint fetish guy was bad. google\'s got the right idea for once, advertising for the child sex offender list and child safety products.

i went to war for my country and all i got was this lousy stump.
Posted by loollz on Sat, 12/02/2006 - 9:23pm.
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Just 4 free
Posted by loollz on Fri, 11/24/2006 - 7:45pm.
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A rant buried in the backpages
Posted by Saint on Tue, 06/29/2004 - 2:11pm.
I've been browsing the Stranger's Queer Issue, and it's a disheartening experience. While the media focuses on the war and the national elections and (deity of your choice help us all) Bill Clinton's autobiography, the backlash from the gay marriages is making itself known. Let me sum up (and editorialize), for those who don't feel like hitting the link.

In Michigan, legislators have passed a bill to make it legal for doctors who object to homosexuality to refuse service to gays and lesbians. If you think that's hunky-dory, try putting it in different terms. What if the doctor is a pacifist and objects strongly to war and warriors? Can he then refuse service to veterans, or is that discrimination? Or say the doctor objects to a patient's other lifestyle choices, like drinking or break-dancing or wearing too much perfume. Can a doctor refuse to treat a smoker because smoking is a dirty disgusting habit that the patient could have stopped doing if he just had the willpower?

In Virginia, a law will soon be passed that not only prohibits recognition of gay civil unions or marriages, it also prohibits "any partnership contract or other arrangements that purport to provide the benefits of marriage." So now gays won't be able to leave their property to their lovers or give their lovers the right to make medical decisions in emergencies. People in Virginia can choose to leave their homes and fortunes to a random stranger, but not to their gay lovers. They can give their roommates the right to make medical decisions (so long as their roommates aren't gay and in a relationship with them), but not the loved ones who they truly want to give that power to. Again, if you don't see a problem with this, I ask you to remove the "gay" from the equation, and pay attention to the fact that the government is removing the right of property owners to dispose of their property as they choose, not to mention the right of the individual to designate whoever they choose to have medical power of attorney. I find it honestly horrifying.

And finally, the state of Oklahoma now not only bans gays from adopting kids, it refuses to recognize same-sex parents who adopted their kids elsewhere as being the legal parents of their children. Presumably, then, if a bigoted neighbor (not that there are any of those in OK) called in Child Protective Services, the children would be taken from their "illegal" guardians and launched into the foster care system. Cuz, you know, that totally beats growing up in a loving household if the parents are...*gasp*...queer.

Okay, I think I'm done. For the moment.
Jesus Christ, people are such
Posted by Cebu on Wed, 06/30/2004 - 9:46am.
Jesus Christ, people are such bigoted ASSHOLES. ASSHOLES! That OK. law is just .. wow. I'm just stunned at the insanity of it. Anyone that agrees with it can just bend down and kiss my ass. Here it is, have a go! I mean, I just can't express how furious this makes me, other than swearing a lot. I leave the proper and calm arguments for someone else.
Posted by Saint on Fri, 07/02/2004 - 12:59pm.
I'm hopeful that judges will put the smack-down on at least some of this crap, identifying it as the discriminatory bullshit that it is. I can't understand people. Why can't other people just be other people and be left the hell alone? I don't think much of fundies, but I at least respect their right to be fundies, and I have no desire to curtail their personal behavior or invade their space to call them names--much less to take away their children. Would god really strike them dead if they just gave queers the same minimal respect?
Sort of Devil's Advocate, but not quite
Posted by Apple on Thu, 03/04/2004 - 5:19pm.
If, as daen has suggested previously in this thread, gay men and women were given all the things married people were given, including but not limited to tax issues, just call it a civil union instead of using the term "marriage," would that do anything?

Probably not. (Yep, I'm cynical.)

It seems to me, and perhaps I'm just not seeing the whole picture even with reading every reporter's opinions, that this has turned into an argument over a word, and neither side wants to compromise anything. In fact, most of the debates I've heard on this have disintegrated into "I'm right, you're wrong, I don't wanna hear your points, you're a big stupid head!"


Side Note: I'm not taking sides, just wishing people would remain calm and civil while trying to discuss their opinions.
Uncivil union
Posted by Saint on Fri, 03/05/2004 - 12:03pm.
Speaking for myself, it's really hard to respectfully disagree with people who put you on the same level as child molesters, who are fighting to put up a monument celebrating the entry of Matthew Shepherd's soul into Hell, who can justify their children beating you with a 2x4 in the school parking lot "for looking at my son's girl that way".... No, most Christians aren't like that--but the ones who are, are very very vocal.

Also, basically, we're afraid that we're gonna get screwed if we don't fight. We always have. I mean, legislation is historically against us. We only recently got the right to have sex in all states; in at least one state, it's still technically illegal for gays to buy liquor; my own state had to have a law struck down that prevented gays from having legal protections (such as the right not to get thrown out of your apartment because the apartment owner is squicked out by your lifestyle). Those states that allow civil unions still don't give civil unions all of the same priviliges or responsibilities of marriage, and until there is a federally recognized form of gay marriage, the rights of someone in a civil union stop at state lines. So civil union in itself has become something of a loaded term, implying separate, but not equal.

It's hard to explain to someone who can get married why being married is so important. *shrug* And now I'm going to shut up, since I tend to lose it on this topic, and I think everyone's pretty tired of hearing it.
Posted by Apple on Fri, 03/05/2004 - 1:05pm.
The beating of gays is trampling on somebody else's right, so one shouldn't have the right to do so. Thus, I'm against it.

I'm also against discrimination based on sex, gender, age, race, nasal picking, etc. It's, once again, trampling on rights.

I'm pretty nuetral on this issue, I care more about everybody having their individual rights. I understand that it's a heated topic with people having deep-rooted beliefs and opinions on both sides. What irks me is the blatant disregard to other people being, well, people, having their own rights. Also, to lump all persons into a group for the behavior of the fanatics would basically be the thing you're fighting against, wouldn't it? No, I'm not saying you're doing that. I'm just saying that if a black person sees all white persons as racists, wouldn't the black person then be guilty of racism?

Fight for civil rights in a civilized manner, is all I'm saying.
Okay, then
Posted by marinerd on Fri, 03/05/2004 - 3:53pm.
I think that's what people are doing. They're politely lining up and purchasing marriage licenses. Other people are selling them, because they believe to do otherwise IS discriminating against people based on their sex.

As Martin Luther King once said, breaking an unjust law to get people's attention -- to notice that it is an unjust law -- is a good thing. [I'm paraphrasing, in case you didn't know!] That seems civilized. Trying to pass laws or amendments that discriminate against people based on their sexual orientation (not to mention screaming abuse at them) seems uncivilized to me.

The more I think about it, the less neutral I get about it. After all, what's next?
Just in case
Posted by Apple on Sat, 03/06/2004 - 6:58pm.
You did notice that I said I disagreed with the action from both sides???
Which means...
Posted by ParU on Sun, 03/07/2004 - 9:34am.
what? My fine fruited friend.
It's Amino world without Chemists
With meaning
Posted by Apple on Sun, 03/07/2004 - 8:43pm.
It means that I'm tired of being lumped in with either of the two sides when I'm just trying to make sure everyone, no matter their point of view, gets to have rights. They can disagree, no matter what.
"You're saying that people can disagree?"
"But what about this person who blew up the clinic."
"He had a right to disagree, he didn't have a right to damage property."
"So, you don't think abortion is a right??"

When exactly did I say that?? It's not like I'm mumbling. Why can't I agree with both sides? There are several points to each argument, and I take each point into consideration. I make up my own mind.
"Nonviolence is the answer to the crucial political and moral questions of our time; the need for mankind to overcome oppression and violence without resorting to oppression and violence. Mankind must evolve for all human conflict a method which rejects revenge, aggression, and retaliation. The foundation of such a method is love."
Posted by ParU on Mon, 03/08/2004 - 12:56pm.
I agree with your statement. I certainly agree with the not damaging property (or hurting people, unsaid, but obvious). However... Is violence ever right? Not withstanding Jesus and Gandhi, etc., I'd take the point of view that in some cases (such as Hitler, Saddam, etc.) where 'world' view of their actions matters to them, then violence is often the only (maybe the last) solution. Cause if Hitler had conquered India he would've just shot Gandhi, but the British cared about world opinions. (The Romans didn't but they did care about 'unrest').
A case in point that's not gotten too much press is Libya. Note that it's turned over it's tons of mustard gas, nuclear facilities, etc. Why now? Lots of opinions, but International Sanctions have been in place for 20 years, with little effect. But a much larger similar state (Iraq) lasted all of 2 weeks and I'd imagine Kaddafi gets CNN.
It's Amino world without Chemists
A word on Gandhi
Posted by peegee on Mon, 03/08/2004 - 2:00pm.
Not that I want to make this into a discussion, but I think one should be careful to associate Gandhi and the uprising against British colonialism - as well as the British reaction to it - with non-violence as a political means. It was not a violence-free rebellion, and even though the British didn't assasinate Gandhi, they slaughtered a great many others, whose main distinction today is that, unlike Gandhi they are mostly forgotten. Furthermore, the British arguably left their proud Indian colony in a state of disarray that bore the seeds of many new violent conflicts, e.g. regarding Kashmir or West vs. East Pakistan (once one country, the latter today known as Bangladesh) or between Hindus and Moslems in today's India. Non-violence is an idea from a David Attenborough movie, wanting to make us believe that overall the indepedence of India was handled in a quite civilised manner; reality is something else.

That ought to do it for today's sermon...
Good point...
Posted by ParU on Tue, 03/09/2004 - 11:27am.
peegee - good point. And it reinforces my point that 'non-violence' isn't going to work when the other side is perfectly happy to use violence. The Iraqis sure weren't going to change Saddam's mind using 'sit-ins'.
It's Amino world without Chemists
Breaking the law...
Posted by ParU on Sat, 03/06/2004 - 10:53am.
Well just to 'rile y'all up... If a mayor can say that he doesn't agree with this law, so he's not going to enforce it, can he then say: I don't agree with the law that says you have to treat people the same based on their race, so we're not going to hire any of those people (the ones who look different from 'us', you know the kinds, I think they live in Utah or Seattle or somewhere *g*)
It's Amino world without Chemists
Fighting the system
Posted by Saint on Sun, 03/07/2004 - 10:00am.
The way our system is designed, an unjust law supported by the majority can only be overturned if someone first breaks it, then fights it all the way through the courts.

And I'm pretty sure some mayors have, in fact, done just as you say, only to find themselved bounced out on their butts and facing stiff penalties when the courts didn't agree with their interpretation of justice.

I'll go back to being quiet now.
From the hip
Posted by marinerd on Fri, 03/05/2004 - 7:42am.
It seems to me, from what I've read, that most gay people aren't interested in "separate but equal" -- they just want equal.

Another problem is people who line up to yell obscenities at newly-married gay couples. If those people were honest, they would admit that it's not gay marriage they're against. They really just want gay people to not exist. IMHO.
Posted by Apple on Fri, 03/05/2004 - 8:07am.
This is what I'm saying. I'm not happy with the way either side is handling themselves.

And, here's a sticky wicket. Why shouldn't the opposition be able to think that they're right? Why is freedom of expression limited?

If you think that being gay is a sin, you should be able to protest in a civilized manner. If you think that being gay is a right, you should be able to say so in a civilized manner.

What you shouldn't have the right to do is trample on other's rights to make your statement.
Oh well
Posted by marinerd on Thu, 03/04/2004 - 9:39am.
This thread is off the front page now, so I imagine it'll fade away. It seems that that happens more often with the new format than the old one--I wonder why?

I saw a sweet story on the news last night. Now that Portland, Oregon is granting marriage licenses to all their citizens regardless of gender, a couple of women in their 60s got married. They were happy and tearful, and spoke briefly about living secretly for so many years. It was so nice that they're married now. It's nice to see good news on the evening news sometimes.

I predict our weasley mayor would never do anything like that in a million years.
Weasley Mayors...
Posted by ParU on Thu, 03/04/2004 - 2:35pm.
What's so amazing about Gavin Newsom (the SF mayor) is that he's a 'conservative Democrat' and he'd just gotten elected so it wasn't like he was pandering for votes. And he's also quite straight (his wife's an attorney who works for Court TV).
It's Amino world without Chemists
Posted by Saint on Thu, 03/04/2004 - 10:47am.
That is sweet. All these old people who have been together for decades trying to live under the radar sort of counter the notion gays can't have steady relationships, eh?

Now, my question is, why couldn't all of this been going on when my wife and I visited Seattle and my friend wanted to drag us to Portland anyway?
The Stranger
Posted by marinerd on Thu, 03/04/2004 - 1:44pm.
I don't know if you read Savage Love, but I adore Dan and am proud he's in Seattle. This article was great, and I copied his bit at the end and emailed it to the man he was addressing. I hope a lot of other people did the same!!
State Marriage
Posted by Kris the Girl on Fri, 02/13/2004 - 7:09am.
So OK, let's pretend a law/amendment is passed, clarifying a state marriage and a..."traditional" marriage, for lack of better terms.
Who, then could qualify for adopting children? Note I did not say "having" children, but actually going through the adoption process. Would a state-marriage qualify as a household? Would it be a factor? Should it be a factor? I don't just mean for homosexual couples, but for any situation--the friends that want to support each other, for instance--what if they want to adopt kids? Is this a stable enough household? What if only one of people involved wants to adopt? Does the other get a say?
Posted by ParU on Fri, 02/27/2004 - 10:25am.
What constantly amazes me about adoption, is the effort (and money) that the state puts into 'preventing' people from adopting kids, but the total lack of 'controls' on those who have kids the 'natural way' and abuse/neglect them. So you have to pass a very difficult screening process to adopt, but if you're a female and get impregnated and a drug addict and get your newborn addicted, that's OK??? Cause that person is a better 'mother' than a caring couple who want a child???
It's Amino world without Chemists
I know I'm late on this but...
Posted by hypoxic on Fri, 02/20/2004 - 8:05am.
Non married couples are allowed to adopt children already. And why should it matter to anyone? That just means that orphans (a catchall term) are no longer on state roles and also going to caring people. See now no one can complain, conservatives or liberals.
Posted by Saint on Fri, 02/20/2004 - 11:11am.
Non-married couples can adopt, but in some states (like mine) gay couples can't. It just won't be declared a fit home. I remember a case when I was in high school: A man and a woman got a divorce. The man was an unemployed alcoholic with a tendancy to knock his wife and their kid around when he was drunk; the wife was a sober woman with a good job, but happened to fall in love with another woman either at the end of the marriage or shortly after the divorce. The courts removed the child from the mother's home and gave him to his dad, because they didn't feel a lesbian would make a suitable parent for a young boy.
Posted by Cebu on Fri, 02/20/2004 - 12:21pm.
Ah yes, I remember that. It makes me so ANGRY ANGRY ANGRY ANGRY ANGRY I could cry.
Civil contract
Posted by daen on Fri, 02/13/2004 - 7:46am.
Let's say that a civil contract for life partnership is in place. Let's further assume that all marriages registered to date are on this same footing automatically. It would then make sense to me that anyone who has registered such a contract should have the same rights and responsibilities, including adoption. If I understand correctly, a married couple has the right to apply for adoption, but has to go through home study and whatnot to establish that they can provide a stable environment for the child. Let that apply to anyone wanting to adopt. And if one partner wants to adopt and the other doesn't... wouldn't that, at least in the eyes of the courts, severely handicap a married couple wanting to adopt?

In summary: legal footing - equal. Personal suitability - determined on a nonprejudicial case-by-case basis.
Posted by Joe Napalm on Fri, 02/13/2004 - 9:00pm.
But why settle for a civil contract?

Why bother with a comprimise in a situation where the government should be minding it's own buisness? I mean, they have enough trouble keeping people educated and safe...their only real purpose...why are they wasting so much time, money, and effort on something that is so clearly outside their purview?

If they wanna get married, they have every right to - and the government has no right to be dictating who can and can't.

Efreeti Sophist
Posted by Apple Man on Fri, 02/20/2004 - 5:14pm.
Is not a right, in the first place. Marriage is a religious ceremony to signify the bond between a man and a woman (and in some cultures, a man and several women). The root issue is that the marriage ceremony is a deeply religious ceremony dating back thousands of years (but not over ten thousand, wink), and held as a cornerstone of many traditions held dear to the religious community. The frantic dash to defend it stems from the root hostility to changing a ceremony so deeply rooted in tradition and religious significance. Right or wrong, the population at large should vote and decide whether same sex marriage is something we as a society should allow. Remember, it is still supposed to be by the people, of the people, and for the people. I for one would rather cast my vote on the issue than have some federal court subvert the will of the majority in America. Finally, here's a real demonstrable instance of true democracy, let's put it to a vote.
Posted by paul on Thu, 02/26/2004 - 10:35pm.
"Marriage is a religious ceremony to signify the bond between a man and a woman (and in some cultures, a man and several women). The root issue is that the marriage ceremony is a deeply religious ceremony dating back thousands of years (but not over ten thousand, wink), and held as a cornerstone of many traditions held dear to the religious community."

Horseshit. It may be religious in origin, but it's not strictly a religious thing anymore- if it was, then the ceremonies performed by the Justice of the Peace would be invalid unless the Justice was a holy man, and we all know that this is not the case. The religious aspects of it are secondary at best.
Posted by Saint on Thu, 02/26/2004 - 11:18am.
I'm curious. If marriage was being denied to people on the basis of infertility, illness, low income, mixed race, or some other clearly ridiculous reason, would the people who say marriage "isn't a right" continue to say that? Or would they be up in arms about discrimination?
It already has.
Posted by Yuri on Thu, 02/26/2004 - 6:24pm.
Interracial marriage was illegal in several states (mostly in the south) prior to the 1960s, and it did indeed get people up in arms about discrimination. Those who were for the ban claimed it was "God's will:"

Almighty God created the races white, black, yellow, malay and red, and he placed them on separate continents. And but for the interference with his arrangement there would be no cause for such marriages. The fact that he separated the races shows that he did not intend for the races to mix. - a trial judge on the Circuit Court of Caroline County, Va., 1959

Laws against interracial marriage were found to be unconstitutional by the Supreme Court in 1967 (Loving vs. Virginia):

The freedom to marry has long been recognized as one of the vital personal rights essential to the orderly pursuit of happiness by free men. . . . To deny this fundamental freedom on so unsupportable a basis as the racial classifications embodied in these statutes, classifications so directly subversive of the principle of equality at the heart of the Fourteenth Amendment, is surely to deprive all the State's citizens of liberty without due process of law. . . . Under our Constitution, the freedom to marry, or not marry, a person of another race resides with the individual and cannot be infringed by the State. - Chief Justice Earl Warren, Loving vs. Virginia

More here.
Posted by ParU on Fri, 02/27/2004 - 10:21am.
My goodness. God created the 'races' and placed them on separate continents??? Oh my. And this was an educated man? Why then, I guess all them 'white' people have to go back to Europe and leave Virginia to the 'red' people...*g*
I am constantly shocked by the depths of human stupidity...
It's Amino world without Chemists
Posted by paul on Fri, 02/27/2004 - 10:32am.
And yet we're seeing more of it right now, being proposed as a constitutional amendment.

Apparently history is not being understood, because it's being repeated.
Constitutional ammendment
Posted by ParU on Fri, 02/27/2004 - 11:44am.
Well we need Question Authority (QA person where are you?) to really discuss this, but given the extreme difficulty in ammending the Constitution (made deliberately hard by the Founding Fathers, with good reason), I wouldn't worry 'bout it. It sure is nice to know that so many politicans have time on their hands...
And they did an article in the SF Chron a few days ago, interviewing the 'locals' in Oakley (a small town about 40 miles east of SF), asking about the 'gay marriages'. The consensus, was that many were against it, but all thought that it was being made too big a deal and that the politicans needed to focus on traffic (a huge consideration in the Bay Area).
It's Amino world without Chemists
Posted by Jon on Mon, 03/01/2004 - 11:18am.
For the most part I agree with you ParU, but I wouldn't be as enthusiastic that the amendment will be so easily blocked. Yes, it is a long and arduous process, but I still think that something so personal does not require a redefinition in constitutional law. I'm not educated in the law, though, so I may be mistaken.
You're right Jon...
Posted by ParU on Mon, 03/01/2004 - 12:01pm.
I just think that politicians make stupid statements all the time and rarely follow through, even with legislation. Considering how much more restrictive ammending the Constitution is, I wouldn't worry 'bout it.
What's more annoying, IMHO, are the people who take these politicans at their word and are shocked, I tell you shocked, when they don't produce.
It's Amino world without Chemists
Posted by Saint on Thu, 02/26/2004 - 8:25pm.
There you go, then.
Oh, bulls balls. If marriage
Posted by Cebu on Tue, 02/24/2004 - 9:43am.
Oh, bulls balls. If marriage was such a religious occasion in every case it could't be done so flippantly in Vegas or quickly in a courthouse.
Did cebu..
Posted by tim on Tue, 02/24/2004 - 12:02pm.
just say " Bull Balls"?
i just may die laughing
; D
- -" The torture never stops"--
Posted by Cebu on Tue, 02/24/2004 - 12:11pm.
No, silly! I said BullS balls. See? Much better!

Posted by tim on Tue, 02/24/2004 - 1:58pm.
That's better I was worried
; )
I'm still laughing at this
--" The torture never stops"--
Posted by Saint on Fri, 02/20/2004 - 10:15pm.
If marriage is truly just a religious institution, then let's get rid of the tax breaks, health insurance deals, automatic inheritance, and other legal perks that accompany it.

So long as marriage is a legal institution, it is wrong to deny it to couples on a religious basis. I mean, Christ, I don't want to get married in your church, or by your minister. And my professing my undying love to my wife doesn't change or cheapen your vows, does it? I don't want to change your ceremony, and couldn't if I wanted to--seperation of church and state. I just want to stand before a judge. I just want the right to see my wife in the emergency room, or intensive care. I want to be able to add her to my health insurance, if she happens to get into a job without benefits. I want to be able to adopt a child with her, not have one of us as the adopting parent and the other just around like a roommate, unable to make medical decisions in the case of an accident.

I've been looking for half an hour, trying to find a quote in the Moon is a Harsh Mistress, of what the Prof says about laws. About how no one wants to pass laws that hurt or inconvenience themselves, only laws that affect other people.

Sorry for the anger. As one of the evil gay people out to destroy the institution of marriage, I get a little bitter on the subject.
Hear, hear!
Posted by yoda on Mon, 02/23/2004 - 9:20am.
hear, hear!

although the separation of church and state seems to be more like a one way valve. religion is allowed to influence the law, but not vice versa.

for example: trying to change the curriculum in georgia schools to remove "evolution" in favor of "gradual changes over time" because "evolution" seems to be too much of a buzzword.
Good idea...
Posted by ParU on Fri, 02/13/2004 - 9:48am.
And I think I'll add a Loonie pt to daen (along with tim's cool pt) for a great idea. And just to clarify (so Saint doesn't hunt me down), I wasn't for or against anything, I just thought I'd stir the pot, and we got a 'daen contract' partnership idea out of it!
Course who says this has to apply only to two people? And is there an age limit?
Runs back to SF and hides in the Castro district
It's Amino world without Chemists
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