Archived comment by Felipe:
Silly people. It's obvious she's discussing a closeted friend trying to pass but when you dance, you nelly. It's true.

Archived comment by bubba:
jon - what???
slugbuggy - Too correct in my estimation. The best actors can make themselves really believe that for that moment in time, they are who or what they are portraying. If an actor can't do that, they have to be on daytime television.

For the people who support the industry, movies are to everyday what vacations are to every year.

Archived comment by Chuck Amos:
Silence
The weapon of the Dictator
The action of the coward
The tool of the bigot
The excuse for the fool
The road to dispare

Strange but they spell "water" that which also comprises most of this earth and the body.
It isn't so "golden" after all.

Archived comment by Mia:
I started reading the comments, but stopped somewhere around the one about "head-in-the-clouds.... in this case a dance major." Being a dance major, I am definitely offended by the idea that not one among us has any redeeming academic ability. I happen to have a 3.9 GPA on a 4.0 scale. I am very intelligent. As for dancing a lie, of course you can. If it can be done in any way shape or form outside of dance, you can then abstract the idea and use it in a modern piece.

Gonna go now. Maybe I'll finish reading the comments.

Archived comment by mej:
This reminds me of a sci-fi novel I read yonks ago. Ah, the good old days, when I had the time to tear through seven novels a week, fifty-two weeks a year....

The premise of the novel was (if I remember right, which is in no way a certainty) that a super-powerful alien race shows up and forces all of humanity to change the way it communicates, abandoning all vocal languages in favour of full-body dance-like movement.

The aliens had this thing about honesty, you see, and they insisted that it would be impossible to lie if humans had to do so with every muscle in their bodies, instead of just vocal chords and face muscles.

I wonder if that girl walking down Rose St. was reading the same novel....

Archived comment by Jon:
I tend to make a dis-stinky-shun between movie and theater actors. Stinky me, I didn't mention it until now. Whole different set of tools involved(think NASCAR's repair tools vs. New Yankee Workshop tools).

Archived comment by Montygirl:
I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV.

(I know, not much to do with the thread, but I like that line.) }:P

Archived comment by Flyhalf:
Acting......Oh come on, it can't be that hard. Let's face it, without nepotism Hollywood would not exist.

Archived comment by Harlequin:
David: Having fun together does count, and can make the difference to a judge, but yeah, I know what you mean. I also have no interest in dance competitions, for similar reasons (as I hinted), but competitive dancers dance like no-one else can, and so if learning for competition is part of the path to that, then I�ll at least give it a try. Unless it is actually that bad... :-)

(The couples that train in the nearby studio DO enjoy dancing with each other, and you know they�re having heaps of fun dancing, (and I�ve heard that this is not always the case (or even that it�s unusual!?)), so I�ve never really seen it at it�s worst. And if I only see that crap at competitions, rather than closer to home, then that�s just fine :-)

Arlene: It sounds like while people can tell lies, they can�t dance a lie.
(Hmmm, that sounds strangely familiar� :-)

Sooo, what are the chances that Girl On Rose St. happened to be specifically talking about competitive dancing (and/or the recent Olympic ice dancing). Makes a lot of sense :)

Archived comment by Arlene:
Saw 3 sets of good dancers this weekend (mall opening), tap ensemble, Spanish, & African. I saw the least of the tap ensemble (I was walking by as they got started but actually got to watch the other 2). Of the other 2, I like the African dancers better. They looked like they were having fun. The Spanish dancers look bored. I'm sorry, I've seen Spanish dancing by enthusiastic people & that wasn't it. I just like dancing where the dancers look like they are enjoying doing it so much I want to get up & try it.

Archived comment by steff:
what?

Archived comment by Jon:
Of course, now I have to "go it again"(no, not that kind, steff) and partially contradict myself. It is my belief that acting is the trained exercise of behavior that people do naturally, to some extent.
My feeling is this: people tend to behave differently in different circumstances(I tend define circumstances as: 1)physical environment and 2)persons with whom to interact). This is graphically displayed in how one can *speak* differently, depending on the object of one's conversation.

Acting, as a trained exercise, is the ability to access this flexibility in behavior, and hopefully to act as if in circumstances as prescribed by the theatrical experience.

Therefore, I tend to say that all people are acting, to some degree. Whether it's done well or not may define the art form from general behavior.

Archived comment by Lola:
Perhaps she was reading from a script? One of those heartfelt cheesy dance flicks that capture the hearts of 14 year old girls everywhere, and usually star the likes of Mariah Carey?

Archived comment by David.:
Harlequin, that's exactly why I have no interest in competition dancing. Not just the clothes, but the aesthetics of the entire dance experience (postures, makeup, those hideous pasted-on grins) have diverged from "real-world" aesthetics. Whenever I watch dance competitions, I always find the couples I favor are eliminated early. I finally figured out why: I favor the couples who look like they're having fun, rather than those who exhibit the most refined technical skill.

Archived comment by vex:
Oh, I see. No, it's not that people who can't act can't lie, it's that people who are too self-conscious about lying probably aren't good actors.

That is fair. I would agree with that.

Archived comment by steff:
yep, egm, even if that's not what she meant, that's what she SHOULD have meant. and sinistrosity... that's just *sniff* so moving. *wipes away a tear* may i use that the next time i have to laugh evilly?

Archived comment by slugbuggy:
Beautiful, EGM.

"You can make a meatloaf, Mom, but you sure can't dance a meatloaf."
"I tried to boost a jump off that ramp but I coudn't dance it."
"I'm done with the report, but I couldn't make it lambada."

Archived comment by triticale:
Crapola in spades? Not the best choice. I would use scoop shovels for crapola.

Of course, I'm the guy who designed a special pitchfork for bowling balls.

Archived comment by Evil Gingerbread Man:
Slag it. The topic of doom is reached via the namelink of general nefariousness and abject sinistrosity.

Archived comment by Evil Gingerbread Man:
Oh, I wouldn't be so hasty, Katrina. There are some people who just might surprise you. Dare anyone read the entire topic of doom?

As for the danceing a lie thing, I thought it was more a colloqualism(sp?) for "pull off". Sort of like to "jig" something is to understand it, to "dance" it is to preform an action. He can tell lies, but isn't good at it, jig?

Archived comment by Katrina:
You people are all whacked!

*LMAO* No wonder I love coming here. Only you guys could discuss an inane comment like this for so long.

Archived comment by Harlequin:
Montygirl and Annie: I'm facing my first dance competition soon (all too soon!), having recently started learning. And my suspicion is that the terrible clothes etc are a textbook manifestation of what I call "the engineer's aesthetic". It�s a simple concept but a little tricky to describe, but basically, that as you improve in a field, the level at which you can appreciate merit become subtler and subtler (good thing) and your appreciation of the merit becomes aesthetic (not always good thing). Eg the architect/engineer looks at a building and finds the fact that a strut (or something) has been placed so fantastically well that it not only serves as structure, but also as an accessway, and as shade, and as decoration. His appreciation of the supreme merit of that work is an aesthetic one, as if he is looking at a work of art (which mightn�t be an unfair description). But 20 year ago, as a student, he might have seen it more in terms of clever efficiency. (I�m using architecture as the example here as I suspect the �engineer�s aesthetic� also explains why architects think buildings that ordinary people like, are ugly, and buildings they think are beautiful, ordinary people find hideous). I noticed it in myself a while back, and realised I needed to keep an eye on shifting aesthetics, since a lot of the stuff I do requires a kind of mastery, but is aimed at appealing to people with no such mastery � a situation in which engineer�s aesthetic can lead you terribly astray.
Anyway, back to dance. It�s ALL about the judges. Not only in the obvious sense (eg, makeup designed to maximise the effect at judging distance, not camera close-up distance, clothing colours carefully chosen to show up well against the dance surface, clothing designs carefully constructed to show off the dance moves, etc), but in the sense that, like the dancers, the judges judge with engineer�s aesthetic. A good dance frame/posture isn�t good because it looks good (to the contrary, non-dancers like me think a good frame looks bad), a good dance frame looks aesthetically good to the dancer (engineer) because it _works_ well, and this has, over the years, bled into an aesthetic appreciation of the mastery required to have such a frame. And when you are talking about someone who has danced since age 6, they have never even known how someone who doesn�t dance perceives these things.

Ok, that�s a lot of text. The reason I�m writing all this is that it�s very close to home right now � I have to face the fact that I�m going to be judged by these "engineer" judges whose aesthetic appreciation has been so tainted/refined (depending on your perspective � both are true) by their technical mastery, that I either choose to accept some of these hideously bad or ugly things (eg, clothes that might look terrible but make your line look a little sharper), else I can stay true to what the rest of the world knows is good taste, and thus look bad to the judges. And I have to find a tactful way to communicate this issue to dance instructors who are exactly the same...

Or to put it another way, the clothes are designed soley to serve the judging. Clothes that do this well are not a pretty as clothes designed to look good. But over years, bad clothes that judge well become synonymous with good dancing, and so become synonymous with stylish and looking good, in the minds of people whose life is dance. I�m the same way in my own fields of mastery.
But at least I�m aware of it...

(And you should hear the way dancer discuss their outfits...)

Archived comment by Montygirl:
David & Fair_N_Hite_451 - Is Sharon becomes a mime, can we shoot her?

Annie, I don't think the ice dancers were smiling, I believe they were grimacing in pain from wearing those wretched, 1982-Michael Jackson-costume-department rejects. After seeing those costumes, I think they should call it "Slashdance".

David - hysterical. Yes, I'm going home to prepare a marvelous feast of pan-seared lie on a bed of fois gras with a lovely balsamic juniper berry glace.

And I think you can dance a lie: Although you can't dance better than you are capable, you can dance badly on purpose. Especially if you're dancing on lye - I'd think that would be quite sliippery, no?

Archived comment by slugbuggy:
vex-Oh, I see. No, it's not that people who can't act can't lie, it's that people who are too self-conscious about lying probably aren't good actors.

Archived comment by slugbuggy:
I just copped David's whole idea without realising it, down to specific words (e.g.,"rapture"). Either I skimmed over it, picking up the gist without remembering that I did so, or else there's something to Mike's theory that IP is permeating our subconscious minds in freaky ways, even when we're not on.

Ah. So, abstract art can have inherent expressive qualities, but not communicative ones, right?

vex- just a theory I heard.

Archived comment by Meggie Moo:
To completely veer off course here--maybe she is just a big fan of WHAM!

That song was the first thing that sprang to mind when I read the quote...

Archived comment by vex:
slugbuggy

Where do you come up with people who can't
act can not tell a lie cause they are too honest.
That sounds like a load to me. Another thing
is that acting is called acting for a reason, not
called "getting away with a lie and intertaining
people and getting money for it is you are
lucking and if you are not you just take food
orders or wash dishes cause than you can lie
there too and get away with that as well but
you have to be smart because you could get in
trouble where as with this things called "being
able to lie and get away with it and entertain
people" is not as dangerous because you are
able to lie and entertain people and get
paided for it!

Archived comment by slugbuggy:
Crapola, in spades. Jon's making me contradict, or at least amend what I've said. Now I remember some actor stating why some people can act and some can't: the ones who can't are too honest to misrepresent themselves emotionally, they're uncomfortable pretending to be someone or something they're not, which is what acting is. So maybe a great dancer can dance a lie, the way a great actor can act a lie. Pthppppt, Rose St. girl, we've collectively defeated you. Next.

Archived comment by fair_n_hite_451:
Not competitively I can't....

Archived comment by gunge:
you can talk the talk but can you walk the walk?

Archived comment by Jon:
Some of these art points fringe on the subject of "acting", as an art form, as lie-telling. I think that it both is and isn't. Except that what I said was a lie... or was it?

Archived comment by slugbuggy:
Good points all around. I thought that "you can say you're a good dancer but you can't fake dancing well" was right at first, but now I'm with the "you can't fake emotions" crowd. If dancing with a partner is seen as a kind of mating ritual, how you dance with someone expresses how you feel. You can say you're interested in someone for their inner beauty, but if get out on the floor and immediately start with the bumping and grinding, your cover is blown. Likewise if you dance with them in a self-absorbed or disinterested fashion. I guess that could also apply to watching a performer dance on stage: if they're soulessly doing a dance of "rapture" or "love" or whatever, you can tell. Not trying to be clever, but I think this applies to the "porn" thread, too. You can't really stage genuine sexual excitement or the personal emotions that are usually involved, that's why so much of it falls flat.

Either theory actually makes sense in this case, along with the "meaningless arty statement theory."

Archived comment by gregj:
But you can dance around the truth...

Archived comment by Annie:
Remembering the shock of my ex-bro-in-law when he ballroom-danced with me for the first time..."You're really *dancing*!" Pleasantly surprised. See, he thought I'd been leading, when he watched my ex and I dance...but I hadn't been. I'm just really good at following. In dance, anyway...

So, yeah...I agree with the quote; you can't hide your dance ability from your dance partner. The body does not lie, not easily, anyway... Unlike the mind. Which can be quite good at lying. :-)

Re: Ice Dancing. Those people scared the CRAP out of me! What was with the bizarre makeup/hair/clothing choices? Like something out of Rocky Horror. Odd...odd and alarming! They smiled so hard it looked like they were screaming...

Archived comment by Shade:
Try this on for size:

True dance is an expression of your soul. When you dance, you reveal who you really are. You can try to look more sophisticated than you are, or even happier than you are...but you can't dance a lie. The truth of who you are will shine through.

...Not that I believe any of that, but I guess I'm with Keli on this one, too. She was probably an English/poetry major who switched to dance.

Archived comment by David.:
Raindog, I do it all the time when (ballroom) dancing with a not-very-good partner. "No, that was my fault. I'm sorry."

Archived comment by David.:
Point taken, Fair_n_hite. Would you settle for "lies are communicative" (as opposed to expressive)?

But if you can mime a lie, why couldn't you dance one? Does dance communicate? Can I, through dance, convey to spectators the rapture and ecstasy of a love doomed to disaster--while not actually feeling any such thing? And wouldn't that be lying, at least as much as an actor playing Romeo is lying?

Archived comment by raindog:
...but can you tell dance and tell a lie at the *same time*?

Archived comment by Lola:
I guess this is why the 'misinterpretive dance' movement never really caught on.

Archived comment by fair_n_hite_451:
Maybe you can't dance a lie, but I'm betting you could mime one. Thereby rendering the statement "lies are linguistic" a falsehood.

So, anyone think Sharon should be forced to become a mime?

Archived comment by jcharles:
Oh, and "you can't pan-sear a lie, either" is hilarious. Just don't try that on Rose St. anytime soon. They may look fragile, but I bet those girls can pack a whollop when provoked.

Archived comment by jcharles:
I'm with Keli on this one. I think she's one of those spoony, head-in-the-clouds type of people, in this case a dance major, who need to impress everyone with the significance of their art. I picture this delivered in dead seriousness, complete with big soulful eyes. She has no idea what it means. She just believes it with all her sensitive, artistic soul.

Notice how I'm not bringing up the subject of whether dancing is actually art.

Archived comment by David.:
Um. This falls under the rubric of Most Meaningless Statement I've Seen in a Long Time. Can't dance a lie? Well no, because a lie is linguistic. You can't pan-sear a lie either. You can't give one a brake job, or take its square root. There are a lot of things you can do that have nothing to do with lies.

Archived comment by Shadow:
I read this a little like Jos did...that you can't lie about your dancing technique - because it's right there for all to see whether you CAN or CAN NOT dance.

Archived comment by Jos:
Sure, anybody can tell a lie. But if you can't dance and you lie and say you CAN, puh. Or, if you lie to your significant other and say you CAN'T dance, but you go out bustin' your groove thang on the sly... There are witnesses.

Archived comment by FuzzyMpb:
I'm trying to come up with something clever about country lie dancing or something... It's just too early though......

Archived comment by Mike:
The Winter Olympics taught me that you can ice dance a lie. Is that similar?

Archived comment by Anna:
I thought it was in a totally different context. I thought the guy wasn't very good at english, and in the course of the conversation said that he, or someone else, "'danced' a lie" (to do with an incorrect translation from his native tongue to english). To which the girl corrected him, saying that you 'tell' a lie, and that you can't 'dance' a lie.

Or something...

Archived comment by Keli:
I just thought she was very passionate about dancing. Dance makes its own truth? Or perhaps it's because I'm very, very tired and philosophical.

Archived comment by tom:
i took it close to that, but not quite - i interpreted that she *did* dance with him, and he took it that she liked him, and then when she said she really didn't, he said that she lied to him..... know what i mean?

or perhaps she was debunking the ancient theory of lie-dancing, developed by the cherokee. either way, i'm down with it.