Archived comment by Arlene:
Didn't we have a medical horror story thread?

Archived comment by Apple:
That's funny, Arlene. I go in for an EMG next week. Shock therapy, indeed.

*grin*

I wouldn't trust myself to operate. Too klutzy. I'd probably leave something that wasn't supposed to be left in there.

Archived comment by Arlene:
Apple, what you don't want the "Incredible Findings" Home Surgery Kit?. You get one free when you order 'shock Therapy in a box'.

Archived comment by Denise:
Geez..KtG... little sensitivity here?

Archived comment by Apple:
Well, you see, that's the problem. I can't not see a doctor. I can't operate on myself. Well, I could, but it wouldn't be pretty.

*grin*

I'm just glad that Mr Man and I have great insurance.

Archived comment by Kris the Girl:
And, 200!!! heee!
That's really all. Sorry. Carry on.

Archived comment by Kris the Girl:
Well, you could do what I do, and never go to the doctor. Ever. Unless you are actually in the process of dying, some kind of over-the-counter remedy will getchya goin.
(my lack of medical visits has nothing to do with the fact that I don't have any money. I swear. Why don't you believe me??)

Archived comment by Apple:
Well, it was horrific for me. No, I'm not going into the whole sordid story. Just trust me that it brought back some rather unwanted but intrusive none-the-less memories.

And, with all I went through, I find myself in the need of many doctors. Very hard to trust any of them when I was let down so horribly. I've been through nine OB/GYNs in the last three years. All but the last one has made bad calls. Calls that put my life in danger. Two of the calls almost cost me my life. (And other things that go with the horrible images that I'm not talking about.) Oncologists, I went through two in as many years. A slightly better ratio, but still a scary one. Neurologists, I'm on my fourth in seven years. General Practitioners, five in three years. Mostly, I'm beginning to think I have tons of luck, it's just all bad when it comes to picking doctors.

Archived comment by steff:
the part of the whole thing that makes MY heart skip a beat, apart from the sadness of it, is that the cost wouldn't have been as high if it hadn't been botched in the first place. i know they're human, but that's why the safeguards are in place. to me, it doesn't MATTER who they dropped the ball on, the fact that something so major went so goofily wrong infuriates me. the medical profession tends to be understaffed and unappreciated, which contributes to problems like this. but (and i know others have far more dramatic examples of this), i pay taxes, health insurance, blahblahblah, and in the past, say, 7 years, between myself and my husband, we've been to the doctor a total of 3 times that we were utterly satisfied. three. times. that's just a piss-poor average on anyone's card. (yes, we went far more than 3 times.) sometimes it's someone being incompentent or uncaring, sometimes it the system itself being horribly awry, and many times it's just the fact that there are 2 nurses for 712 patients and 5 overscheduled general practioners who've tried too many times to explain to the same wailing, hissy-fit throwing parent that antibiotics will NOT help their child's virus. whatever the reason, it's one of those things that most of us only have time to deal with by not looking directly at or thinking too hard about the problem (like uv rays or highway death tolls) and going blithely on our way and maybe stopping by the doctor when we need to and hoping they'll be there when we HAVE to. to have the worst case scenario paraded on the news for weeks in such a rendingly HUMAN way was frightening in many ways for a lot of people.

Archived comment by hypoxic:
yup I agree that it is an ugly situation. But I remember that people were balking at the high cost of medical insurance and I just couldn't help think that this is a cause for that.

Archived comment by Paul:
Your impulses do you credit, tim. I too would by far have preferred that the girl live.

And yet I see the other side of it too- the opportunity for someone else to have benefitted from that heart (actually, two hearts, since they lost her after transplanting in a second one, IIRC), the monetary cost that will have to be eaten by someone, and so on. For one patient this is not that drastic of an issue- the costs can be absorbed. But what about all the rest of the people around the world looking for transplants that they can't afford? Take that one girl and multiply her by a hundred and suddenly we can't afford to do these charity cases anymore. And who's to say that a 15 year old girl is more deserving than a 75 year old man? Perhaps the 75 year old man is an important scientist, while the 15 year old girl grows up to be a crack addict.

All this is ethics, which is a very grey and fuzzy and slippery area. If you allow one case, you have to allow them all- or not allow any of them. In that case either we let all the foreign nationals from around the world put a huge strain on our health care system at a cost to the rest of the country, or we refuse to treat any of them unless they can pay their own way.

Either way it gets ugly. I'm just glad it's not my job to decide that sort of thing.

Archived comment by tim:
I think, perhaps, seeing that girl saved, alive, and happy afterwards would have contributed more to MY life than any amount of economic stability a legal resident could provide me.
It would have been good for my soul and that, perhaps, is where I'm out of step.

Archived comment by hypoxic:
well actually legal residents do have more value if you want to put it like that. Legal residents contribute to the economy and so provide economic benefit. This girl nor family provided any benefit to this country. Why should they be beneficiaries of our largesse? Again up to 4 people were denied a chance to live beacuse of her. How can we deny 4 legal residents the chance to live for 1 illegal person? I hate to balance out lives like that you have too.

And you're not snarky, you're just wrong (j/k)

Me I'm a meat popsicle.

Archived comment by tim:
So a legal residents life is more important than a little girls?
This is where it gets very hairy with me.
She had a sponsor , from what I understand, and she is just as entitled to live as anyone else.
Ofcourse you have people saying if it was an "American" the doctors would have been more careful etc etc.
The race card.
But how anyone can say you deserve it, you don't is beyond me.
I can understand both sides...believe me.
But if I have a choice to save a 70 year old ex-smoker or a 15 year old little girl?
Who makes that call?
And isn't her coming here to be saved and get the best medical treatment what America is all about?
If they had put her story in the paper and set up a fund...money would have poured in from all over the country.
That's the way we are.
I'm glad she got the chance...I'm sorry that it went so wrong.
I usually don't rant too much and I keep most of my more passionate beliefs to myself.
But for some reason...this story just tilted my world a little and I haven't quite put it to rest.
Sorry if I appear...snarky
lol

Archived comment by Apple:
My opinion on this is biased due to a past experience.

Legally, she shouldn't have. Emotionally, how could we have not given her the chance? Should her parents be able to sue, given the legal issues regarding their presence in the country? Not up to me to decide. Besides, I'm biased, so they wouldn't be asking me anyway.

Archived comment by hypoxic:
Actually my argument is a combination of the two, apples and pauls. The girl legally shouldn't have even had the operation. That she did gave her a chance that someone else was denied. I still don't think that she should have even had the operation.

Archived comment by Apple:
There are some arguing that she shouldn't have had the chance because of the legality of her being in the U.S. at all.

I say it doesn't matter, an attempt was made to save a human life.

It's a future lost.

Archived comment by Paul:
Well said, tim.

And I didn't mean that I was speaking for hypoxic- I know better than to speak for anyone else when they're quite capable of doing it themselves- but rather expressing my own interpretation of the situation, such as it is. Hypoxic's opinion may well be drastically different, and I may have misinterpreted his meaning- but based on my knowledge of his posts, I think I was right.

Anyway... back to rewriting SOPs...

Archived comment by tim:
thanks for the translation Paul but I still think I'll wait for hy's answer.

and i agree she did get the chance which is saying something...
When I was in the hospital 2 days after my open heart a nurse came in, handed me a cup of pills and said " here you are Mr. Johnson..take them all with breakfast"
I looked at the pills and, drugged up as i was, knew they weren't the same ones I'd taken the last 2 days.
I said " My name's isn't Johnson" she looked confused and a bit angry and said
" This isn't 322a"
I said " No, It's 222a"
She took the pills with a laugh and said
" Ooops, I'm sorry"
and out she went.
I never saw her again...she was obviously on the wrong floor.
Had I taken those pills I may very well have died.
My care other than that at the hospital was extraordinary and with all that goes on I have no complaints at all about health care in general.
But, had I died, is it right that my wife or family should be compensated?
For lost income at least?
My opinion is..it's not going to bring me back. It happened for some reason and sad as it may be, it's done.
But when it's a child...
How can you put a price on a future?
yes she had a chance which is better than not having one at all.
but you expect, in that situation, that certain precautions would be taken.

Archived comment by Paul:
"Are you suggesting that cocoanuts migrate?!?"

No, I don't think that's what he meant, tim. At least that's not how I read it.

This is the case of the girl who got the wrong heart, right? Yes, it was horrible and sad and a tragedy, especially that it got botched to such an extreme degree.

At the same time, at least she got a chance at it. And that's better than a lot of people get. How many people die each year because an organ just wasn't available at all? (No, I'm not going on a soapbox here- but I do say that I'm very much in favor of being an organ donor. After all, if I'm dead, I'm not going to need 'em anymore.)

So even though it ended in tragedy, at least she had a chance... and that in itself is something to be grateful for.

Archived comment by tim:
Are you saying she shouldn't have??

Archived comment by hypoxic:
but the point is that she had the chance. hell she had zero chance before. I just want to know why she even had the chance.

Archived comment by tim:
That was one of the saddest things I'd ever seen.
I cried.
My point being there is NO amount of money that can ever replace that loss.
When I think of the hope she had, the trust she had, what she and her family went through to get here to get that second chance...and to have it go so horribly wrong.
I just hope she didn't know that there were problems afterwards.
which isn't much better than the thought that she kept waiting to wake up and be healthy.
Sorry...It Really upset me.

Archived comment by hypoxic:
grrrr the Santillian thing has got me really steamed. I mean if you are going to complain about high costs, she is it, or at least one of the reasons.

Archived comment by Denise:
Yup... 2 million is the usual and customary lifetime maximum amount an insurance company will pay out for anyone (in MN, anyway).

Some premature babies hit the max before they are even a year old and they will never again have a single cent covered by that insurance company. The parent(s) had to quit the company they worked for and find a new job that went through a different insurance carrier.

Archived comment by umrguy:
Same thing for disability/workman's comp - my dad hurt his wrist on the job, and in the end, he described it as basically a "meat chart" with the human body, and prices for each part, which are affected by total loss of use....

Archived comment by Apple:
I can tell you, in the state of Indiana, a human life is worth approximately $2 million per person / hospital involved in the horrible tragic experience.

Other states may vary.

Archived comment by ParU:
tim - unfortunately, how much is a life worth has been calculated out. That's what acturarial tables are for that life insurance companies use.

Archived comment by tim:

I agree that some are frivolous and unwarranted...but then you look at a case like Jessica Santillan and ask..How could that happen.. and how much is a life worth?

Archived comment by umrguy:
Arlene, I totally understand - my dad's an Registered Nurse, and he works in a pediatric hospital - particularly, in the ICU. I can remember several years back a big concern about him possibly being involved (as one of the nurses who took care of the child) in a stupid, unfounded malpractice suit. (Fortunately, it never got far.)

Archived comment by ScaredyKat:
I blame the high cost of U.S. health care on the fact that everybody *but* the uninsured working class sets thier own price. So the hospitals soak us for the rest of it. Goes back to standard pricing for government-paid care but got way out of hand. If you're lucky, you can plead mercy & they'll work with you.

Stupid thing is, socialized care covers you but it takes years to see a doctor. Anybody got a better plan?

Archived comment by Lisa 2:
You know what I blame for the high cost of health care? The fact that they charge too much :-D

Archived comment by Apple:
You mentioned it already, Arlene. Just wanted to reiterate: some malpractice lawsuits are legit. Not a good many of them, but some.

Experience speaks here. Just trust me.

Archived comment by Arlene:
I have someone(s) to blame for high cost of healthcare. Frivolous malpractice suits.
Did you know that many med students avoid obstetrics (that's birthing docs) because of the nauseating high cost of malpractice insurance? Baby Janey has a problem? Let's sue the doctor, the hospital & anybody else we can think of.

Meanwhile, Mr. & Mrs. Smith's baby has a problem that was due to some negligence (it does happen) & they get nowhere because the other 9 cases involve problems that are not anyone's fault, unless you want to blame 1) genetics, 2) mom's alcohol or drug consumption 3) mom's lack of nutrition & prenatal care, etc.

Sorry, my mom was a nurse & I know/knew too many in the healthcare profession for that not to be one of my hot topics.

There are people in HMO's who's only job is to check on doctor's credentials (so Dr. B really does have that medical degree, it's not just pretty wallpaper). I find that reassuring.

I'm sorry, what is this box doing under my feet? Where did it come from?

Archived comment by Saint:
It won't sit well with her, either; she's been a single mom for 17 years, and she's used to making it on her own. She's already refused to let him buy her a car, or an engagement ring. Because he is her friend, I don't think she's seeing his attitude in quite the same way that I am, as a disinterested observer.

Archived comment by Paul:
Ugh. Then she should run as fast as she can from that situation- he's basically thinking that he's buying himself a lifelong prostitute.

Then again, maybe she's okay with that. I've seen women do that too and be happy with it. But it would not sit well with me.

Archived comment by Saint:
Wow, Matt, it must have been a good laugh--you forgot to point out that "your" should have been "you're."

Archived comment by Saint:
Paul--my boss does know him pretty well; it isn't like my boss just picked a name out of a hat, they've been friends for 15 years. But there are things you don't know about your friends--and often don't want to know--that you can't help knowing about your lover. Outside the bedroom, they're very compatible in their religion, personal philosophy, concept of family, sense of humor, etc. It's only in intimacy that problems became apparent.

From what my boss says, it seems to me that he is coming into this with an attitude of "I've got the money, I'm rescuing you from a crappy job and a boring town like a regular Prince Fricking Charming, so I shouldn't have to work at impressing you." Or maybe that's too harsh, I dunno. I don't really care, though; I like my boss, and I'm quite happy for her to stay here.

Archived comment by Matt:
Thank you, Saint. I desperately needed a good laugh with my morning coffee.

My sides hurt.

Archived comment by Saint:
Life is like a gangbang...you know your a-gonna get screwed, you just don't know who's up next.

Archived comment by tim:
My momma always says naughty is as naughty does

Archived comment by steff:
"apparently" naughty, says the tim, as if he has no idea what it means. ha!

Archived comment by tim:
Nice suit Kat.
; )

there was a general play nice, slapping of wrists, washing out of mouths with soap over Matt's colorful yet apparently "naughty" euphemism

Archived comment by Katrina:
Fall out? What fall out? *donning my nuke suit*

*blink* wha?

Archived comment by Matt:
Katrina, you missed the fallout. It's my term; use it all you like.

Archived comment by Katrina:
Mini-pogo!!!!!!!!!!!!! *LMAO* That's a new one for me. Mind if I use it? We better behave or Par-U will start tsking.

Archived comment by Matt:
I will not share my beer/yeast story. I will not share my beer/yeast story.

Archived comment by Paul:
Some of us are quite aware of soap and its uses. And we're quite aware of having to wash certain areas of ourselves before we get intimate in case there will be mini-pogo.

But this is not particular to a gender. I've been with a few girls who were less than fresh, if ya know what I mean. And not repeated the experience with them.

Archived comment by steff:
i can't get away with saying ANYTHING to her! heh. yes. soap. soap is good. mandatory, even. please, please dear God PLEASE... hygeine, guys.

Archived comment by Katrina:
And fathers, not just mothers. Don't want to be sexist. *L*

:D